Episode 04: The Perfectionist’s Guide to Creativity
Transcript:
[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the life we create. I'm Cobain Rivers and I'm Taylor Joy Stevens. And today we'd like to thank you for joining us once again on our fourth episode, shout out to four episodes. Here we go. Cooking, cooking with grease. Anyway. Cooking with gas. Oh, yeah. Well, you cook with grease too.
One of the sayings, cooking with gas. You may notice things are a little bit different here in our setup. That's because those first few episodes were actually filmed about a year ago prior to us having cash. Once our son was born, we kind of had to refocus and figure out a new strategy. So here we are built a new space at home until we can, uh, you know, Figure out another space, uh, but right now while we're taking care of him, it makes [00:01:00] sense to do it when we can, where we can.
Mm hmm, and it is very fitting for today's episode. This is very much a work in progress setup and, um, we chose to To move through it and not let perfectionism hold us back, this episode is Perfectionism in Creativity. What actually is perfectionism? Perfectionism is an exceedingly high standard and overly self critical, uh, behavior.
Toward yourself. Yeah. How does others? Oh, that's others too. Oh, okay. Yeah. How does that show up for you? It shows up for me in my life in that I'm always questioning if I'm doing enough. And, um, you know, control is really a part of perfectionism too. So it's like, I try to control as much as I can with like my [00:02:00] productivity and what I can do and how I can do it.
And it gets to be a bit much. Burns me out. When you say how you can do it, what is it? When it, like, what do you like? Like, um, like, uh, the standard that I have in my head. Oh, I understand that. I, you know, I think I hold myself, you know, when it comes to me, I also hold myself to such a high standard when it, when like, I think about the outcome of whatever I'm creating, uh, there is such a high value that I place on it.
It's that exceedingly high standards part. Yeah. And that control part. I really. identified with, because there is so much wanting to make sure every aspect turns out the way that I see it in my mind. Uh, and when something, or when you reach like a roadblock and it doesn't, when you reach a roadblock and you realize you're not going to be able to either do it the exact way that you want, [00:03:00] it's like, well, shit, do I continue going or do I just move on to something else?
Well, mine really starts. When I start a lot of the times like I don't even get to the roadblock part It's like before before like the key goes into the ignition. It's like, oh, I don't know if it's gonna turn out The way you have it in your head, so I'll just lob it on back there with all your other ideas.
Oh, wow Okay, that's that's pretty early on in the process that you're stopping yourself. It's part of that all or nothing part of perfectionism Yeah Uh, I, I can say that for me, I get going, but it's a never ending journey. I'm on an endless road trip, so I'm just, I'm in the car, I'm driving, I get to a stop and I'm like, is this the destination?
No, no, no. I think I'm going to keep going. I'm gonna keep moving on. And then I've been driving for a month. Driving in circles. Just driving around on the block till I get back. Uh, so yeah, so it's, it's less of not starting and more of not finishing [00:04:00] on my end. Yeah, it's that artist that always thinks that the art is never done, like there's always more to like, add to the art, but like, at some point you have to be like, You know, that's what I'm saying.
Time to move on. I, uh, there's an artist that I identify with so much and I feel like I've mentioned this artist before if I haven't, and then people who know me know I have. Uh, so Kanye West, like in 2016 when he was working on The Life of Pablo, he decided to start calling his albums living pieces of art or living artwork, uh, because he wanted to be able to keep updating it.
To me, that was a clear cut image of perfectionism because like, even when it's out, it's still He's like, I want to re listen and I'm going to rework on things. There's like an, a song Wolves that he really, he like kept re uploading and re uploading because he kept changing things. He'd add an artist, change an artist.
There's so many things, and this is like months after the album's even done and out. Uh, and so [00:05:00] that's kind of me, except for at least he put it out. I'm still like, it sounds a little obnoxious though. It's from a fan perspective, it was very frustrating because you get to a version, you're like, this, this version is awesome.
And then you go back to listen to it and it's like, well, this is different. What just happened here? And I, I highly respect, you know, him as an artist and musician, but just the thought of like something keep, I don't know. It's like, Come on, bro, like, you have a lot of amazing ideas. Let's just like, let's just, you know, put that one down and go to the next one.
Well, and that's, I see that's the part when moving on to the next idea, especially when you have so many, like it's let this idea exist, go into the next one and, you know, build that one up. I, that's advice that I guess I need to take. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. His computer is like kind of a graveyard of some of his work.
It's a lot of projects that like, I think I [00:06:00] started and I wanted to finish and I got to something that either I felt like I didn't know how to do. So now I have to learn how to do this. Um, or it got to a point to where I'm like, well, Maybe when I get this money, I'll be able to apply it to working with this person.
Uh, and they can get it because I want it to sound like something they've done. Uh, so there's a, there's a putting it on the backburner. Yeah. Until there's a resource that becomes available for me to utilize. Maybe it's more like an incubator. Your computer. Yes. It kind of reminds me of like those people that like are frozen and when the time is right they'll thaw.
Oh yeah. Yeah. So maybe it's more like that. Yeah. Because I, I mean, I can tell you, I go back to these projects all the time and I work on it and there's this song that I started like two years ago and I just, the other day went back to, to work on because I'm better at mixing now. [00:07:00] So, so now improved skillset.
Yeah. So now I'm sitting with it again and I'm like, oh yeah, I can make this sound better and it's good. Mm-Hmm. It's sounding better, but there's still, like, now I've found a new roadblock. Yeah. Uh, that I, that I'm like, okay, well I think I want this like kick to sound a little bit better on it. Let me now practice creating kicks and making them better.
It's just this, this sense of I wanna do it all. Um, and I think really where it comes a lot of times is there's a, a time verse. Money balance and because I could pay someone to do this. Um, but a part of it is like well I just want to learn and my certain I guess solo projects are things that there's no like priority on Um, because I'm doing so many other things that I feel like I have the time to just figure it out.
And I think there's a, I don't think there's also a difference with mastery versus perfectionism. That's like a thin line though. I definitely, it is. It's [00:08:00] kind of like a balancing act because I'm someone that really truly loves to master certain things, but I don't consider that part of the perfectionism that I deal with.
Like I generally want to feel like. I'm accomplishing something internally for me. Yeah. It's like, that's a goal within the goal. Got you. Yeah. Yeah. That's actually, you know, I mean, I think whatever your end goal is, it's not so bad. I mean, unless your, unless your goal is to put out content, then, then it definitely probably causes some issues.
Yes. Well, that, it was one of my issues. Mm. For a long time, I was not doing content because of, um, you know, I, I was dealing a lot with like fear of judgment for a while. Mm hmm. I was dealing with it not looking the way I envisioned it or not having the budget for what I wanted to do, but I think that, I don't [00:09:00] think that allows you to be creative in your solution because there's so many people all the time that talk about the potential that they've seen in someone with, with what they did with what they had and that, that makes them want to give them money to like go bigger.
So. Yeah. There's value in that. Well, and, and to your point there, there's also the thought process of while you're trying to get better, if you're, if you're working on more things, putting more things out, you're allowing yourself the ability to grow from those things. Uh, there's this, uh, the other day YouTube content and one of the, uh, the videos, the guy starts off with talking about this.
Experiment that was done not too long ago, where they put, um, two separate groups of people into a room, uh, to make these clay pots and one section of people, they said, you just focus on [00:10:00] making the one perfect clay pot. That's all you do. You work on this one clay pot and you perfect it. And the other group, they said, you make as many clay pots as possible.
Just keep, keep cranking out clay pots. At the end of the experiment, they look at them and say, okay, let's see what the best clay pot is. And while you would think it's the group that spent all the time trying to make the perfect one, it actually was the other group because they got so good at making pots from doing so many.
They had just been cranking them out by the time they got to one of the last ones. They had really perfected the art of pot making. Yeah. And the first group spent so long trying to figure it out, they, they never actually perfected anything. They just kind of got stuck and created a sort of half pot.
They, they created a pot that was good, but it wasn't like perfect. Mm hmm. Uh, so that always kind of reminds me of sometimes there is this quantity over quality thing because the quantity allows your quality to improve. Yeah. I literally saw something that, [00:11:00] uh, demonstrated this just before this, uh, recording now.
And it was, um, talking about how masters have more failures than beginners. And just like the visual that, um, this artist did was really cool. Um, I think what let's link the artists, let's tag them because they have really great visuals for creatives and like, Like working through your creative process.
Right, right. Yeah. A lot of cool inspiration, but that's what reminded me of that. It's like, yeah, keep, keep like throwing your darts at the target because the, you know, practice makes progress. I actually like that. Ooh, practice makes progress. I like that. I like that better than the concept of practice makes perfect because perfect doesn't exist.
Does not exist. So practice makes progress. I like that. Um, I, and I love the, the, the, Mastery has more failures, you know, I think in perfectionism, there's this fear of failure, uh, and you're trying so hard to [00:12:00] make something so great because you're concerned with failing at it. Um, But then you've run into all these roadblocks we talk about, whereas if you can be comfortable with failing, that's how you reach that mastery.
That's how you start to, to develop the skills to feel like you're actually creating at the level you want to be creating at. Mm hmm. And so that's kind of where like my focus is right now for my stuff is more so let's. Let's let's work to fail, um, and yeah, put this stuff out there. Let's get out there and let's grow.
Uh, and eventually I'm going to get to my, my perspective, my viewpoint of like, Oh wow. I made this like, and I'm, I'm very happy that I made it, or I'm working with other people that are now what I was saying earlier, where I'm trying to compare myself to these people that are, you know, the best of the best in the field.
Now I'm working with these people because I continue to do what you were saying earlier, showcase my potential, showcase how I'm getting better, showcase [00:13:00] my, my content improving. And now here we are, these people are now in my circle. Yeah. Becoming friends with failure and, um, failing up. Yeah. Uh, Leslie Odom talks about that in his book.
That's really good. Um, yeah, I don't know. Failing. Failing means you're making progress. So, and who's like, I don't know, who's also to define failure. I think there's very like certain things that can define it. Like, um, you know, you're fired, but like, I think there's a lot of gray area with that and like, maybe you're just learning.
Yeah. A lot of times we are the. We are the ones that are creating the failure for ourselves. Uh, and so a lot of times that actual failure doesn't really exist. Yeah. It's just, you know, uh, because I can't tell you how many times I, I felt that way. Uh, and I put something out and there's somebody that like, man, this is really good.
You made this or, or [00:14:00] like, there's like a, a response that I'm just like, wait, where? Oh. All right. Cool. Cool. Pat myself on the back. Yeah. What you don't know is I was beating myself up all last week. Yeah. Um. You have to get out of your own head. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there was a, you were telling me earlier today this, uh, because I, you know, sometimes I think we also don't recognize how many people deal with perfectionism and how many people that we like watch regularly or we look up to that are dealing with it.
You were telling me earlier today. About, uh, something Emma Stone said. Yeah, Emma Stone was just saying She was, uh, interviewed by CBS, uh, Sunday morning. And, uh, she was just talking about how she never feels like she's getting it right. Um, Like, it's just always something in her head. Like, it's not, she's not like, Oh, that was a great take.
It's like, is that right? Like, she never knows. So, [00:15:00] to just know, um, you know, that she questions. Her work like the rest of us. I don't know. I like humanized her a lot Yeah, and she also just called it out like creatives deal with perfectionism and like that's that's what she deals with on on every Set basically.
Yeah Yeah. Well, it's, it's always in our mind as creatives. I think what we're doing, there's a phrase you said, uh, the other day that I, I love so much. We're constantly pushing for excellence. And it is this, again, the thought process that we have in our head, or the vision that we have in our head where we see something and that's what we're going for.
Uh, and so we're always pushing for that, but you gotta know. You gotta know when to pull the trigger, uh, and not just kind of sit on, on the, the journey to excellence. You gotta learn how to, how to participate in it, I guess. That's really what it is. Cause, cause so much of that excellence [00:16:00] comes from outside perspective, outside, or like it comes from getting out of your own head.
Mm hmm. Yeah. And that's, that's something that, um, you know, I actively do to like overcome my moments of perfectionism are things to get out of my head and like to help free up my mind and like get me into like flow and to not be so hyper focused on like any sort of result or like an end outcome more so.
Um, and something that really taught me how to do that for myself is the artist's way. Um, so yeah, there's just a few concepts and exercises that like, I really took from doing that. What, what is the Artist's Way just for anybody that may not know? Yeah. The Artist's Way is a workbook, um, by Julia Cameron, uh, to help, basically to help you get out of your head and like live a creative life and, [00:17:00] um, really claim the creativity within you.
Hmm. Is there something like that is for like working creatives or is it something that like Illini Anyone. Fantastic. Yeah. Like what we say, like if you're human, you're creative. So if you're trying to, um, enrich your life, um, feel more fulfilled or if you're, if you are creative in, in like an artistic field and like feel like you're blocked, um, it helps, it helps like get you out of, you Out of your head.
It helps get you unstuck. Nice. Oh yeah, that's nice. Nice. Uh, I think for me, when I think about like, how do I help myself overcome that? It's really, I've moved into more collaborative spaces. Uh, so I, I really try to prioritize the working with other people and, and sort of building this community. Uh, that allows me to one, share ideas, um, but also hear kind of other people's ideas, uh, see what other people are working on.[00:18:00]
You know, I think, uh, uh, in music, uh, uh, I'm a part of a group called It's Talent Night and my partner, uh, Zach, it's funny, a lot of times I'll kind of send him random, like things I've produced or that I'm working on, uh, just to kind of get an outside perspective. And I think what's allowed that is feeling safe in that space, uh, to where I don't really Allow myself to be super concerned with exactly what he's going to say as much as I really want to know what his like thought processes.
Like, what do you think about this? And I look at it as, oh, this is how I can improve that. Or, and you know, sometimes I don't always agree because there is a specific vision that I have behind something. Yeah. But it's allowed me to really open up more and take that outside feedback and know when something has reached a space where it may be already done.
You know, sometimes you, you, you send something to somebody and they're like, Oh, this is good. Put this out. And you're like, Oh, okay. I thought it needed a little bit more tweaking, but here we are. [00:19:00] Yeah. Yeah, no, I, I really agree with that. Um, being in community and being in connection with other people, um, helps get you out of your head and gets you out of like the, sometimes your mind can be really restricting and it can be like really, if you're isolating yourself, it can just, yeah, you can be focusing on all the wrong things when you're in that space.
So allowing people in is definitely a good way to like zoom out and get different perspectives and, um, You know, see what, uh, hear what other people see that maybe you didn't even see yourself. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a big one. Yeah, that's a big one. Um, the other thing, and this is something that I'm working on actively, uh, but it's funny because I was reading an article about, and this was a little, boom, some time ago, uh, about Cara Delevingne, where she was talking about her, Perfectionism.
And one of the things she said that she's doing to sort of move past it is she said, I'm learning to love myself. Uh, and, and I think that's such a big one [00:20:00] because so much of our perfectionism traits are around not allowing your space, yourself, the space to be a perfectionist. Okay. With what you're doing, it's sort of like self criticism, so much self criticism and so much pressure that we're putting on ourselves to, to achieve.
Um, when a lot of times like the way to really actually, you know, feel good about what you're doing is, is to feel good about what you're doing and feel good about you. Yeah, I love that. It's self love. Yeah, absolutely self love. Well, that's why I also really liked it I was like, oh, this is literally the wave of what our company is about is really trying to create things that you feel good about And that really nurture yourself I think that's the big one being able to nurture who you are and and care about what your thoughts are from a perspective of and If I'm thinking this, if I'm feeling [00:21:00] this, then it's okay.
And, and, and let's, let's work through that and let's, let's create that content around it and see where it goes. Yeah. I was just thinking as you were talking that no one. I don't think anyone really likes a perfectionist. A perfectionist. I don't think anyone really likes a perfectionist because, especially like when you're working with a perfectionist, like to feel that rigidity and like constriction and like control and like micromanage, like, like, that's not fun.
Like that's not a good experience for anyone. And no one should be put through that. And like, I don't know. Like, Like, loosen up, I'm speaking to myself too, like, with this, like, loosen up and let things flow because we do need, like, diversity in thought. Because there isn't one way to do, do something. And I feel like when you alleviate the perfectionism, it allows you to, you know.[00:22:00]
include, include other thoughts, opinions, um, perspectives. Yeah. That actually reminds me of, uh, Steve Jobs, uh, genius, but was notoriously a perfectionist. And while he brought out the best in a lot of people that worked with him and under him. It was such a toxic environment and people really were stressed out, um, because of the level of perfectionism that he exhibited and what he expected in people.
So it made, it made the workspace so tough for people to wear. Sure. I I'm making these products that are changing the world, but at the end of the day, I don't feel great. I don't feel great about what I've done because I feel like when I go back to work tomorrow, like I've got, I've got this Gestapo stepping in the room and yelling at me about what's going on.
But you know, I think so to your point, it's tough for the other people that work with or under a perfectionist because those [00:23:00] standards are not healthy. Um, for the environment and, and not for growth and, and people feeling like they can, you know, be vulnerable. Yeah. It actually reminds me, I mean, I love that, you know, you used Steve Jobs as an example because of us both working.
Um, at Apple, um, at one time and there was a point in time where we're working in an environment that did have exceedingly high standards and it affected a lot of the team. Yeah. Well, it was high standards without the resources to be able to achieve these standards. Yeah. So it was like making us really uncomfortable, like it was not a good time.
It was not for anybody, like no one, no one was having a good time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it really just sucks out the Joy. in this situation, point blank.
Very common for creatives, uh, I think, and that's no matter what industry you're in, I think we're [00:24:00] all pushing ourselves to a level, uh, where we want to be the best, we want to feel like we're doing the best work, but you gotta, you gotta kind of take it easy on yourself. Cause that's how you get to that space.
Yeah. Um, you're allowed to enJoy the process and you're allowed to be gentle with yourself and be easy. And these are like, these are things that I. Tell myself to, like, consistently, like, be gentle and celebrate. The small ones. These are things that she tells me also because I'm like working on something like, oh, that's stupid.
And she's like, hey, don't say that about yourself. Yeah, self talk. Oh, that's another, I think that's another episode, but yeah. Yeah, so, uh, you know, we'd love to hear from you all. Let us know in the comments, on our social media platforms. It's all of them, Instagram, Twitter, all those things. Yeah. Let us know, Really what you're sort of, uh, I guess how you get past your perfectionism if [00:25:00] you see it in yourselves or the traits that you see Maybe those things can help us as we continue to build our Collective of of activities to move through it.
Yeah. Yeah your kryptonite and perfectionism and I just, I just wanted to reiterate the community part is really important that, uh, you know, something to come, more to be revealed in the future, but, um, something in the works for sure. Uh, we've been talking about, um, but in the meantime, connect with us and grow with us and learn with us and you can find us.
What's your concept? What, no, what's your, uh, before you go into that, what's your, uh, quote on growth? What is it? I love it. Growth is messy. Ooh, growth is messy. I love it. I love it. It's not a clean cut thing. It is hard. Get down and nerdy with it. Yeah. Growth is messy. Yeah. Uh, you can find us on at self love media on all the platforms.
Oh, and that is, um, S L F L V E. Yes. Media. Yes. Yeah. And I [00:26:00] am at my name. Taylor Joy. Stevens. Well, it's just @TaylorJoyStevens. The other one's too long. Uh, and I am @CobainRivers on everything. Uh, so reach out to us, hit us up, let's talk, let's, let's, uh, let's gather and let's build community. Yeah.
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